Dear Manic Mommies

Hi Erin and Kristin -

I've been a loyal listener for over a year now, since right after Christmas 2006 when I received my iPod Nano.  I even went back and caught up on all your archives, initially.  I love, love, love your podcast!  Every week I find myself wanting to respond to something you've said, whether it is how hard I laughed about Kristin telling her husband she dented his car, or how I could empathize about hearing that your Kindergarten kids are the worst behaved bus riders the seasoned driver has ever encountered.  Even though I am a SAHM, I relate to most of what you say.  And I particularly like your "we're all in this together" attitude which you maintain even while sharing your opinions or advice.

You may remember me as the person who won the Wii last year.  My son often tells people that I won it in a contest by a "mommy" podcast.  Usually people have no idea what a podcast is so they just nod their heads.  They don't know what the are missing!!  And the Wii has totally improved our life, so thank you again.

Even though I enjoy your podcasts and have much to add to each one, I rarely call or write in.  But this week I could not keep silent!  You hit on not one, but two, of my big issues.  Holding kids back for Kindergarten and Day Care Centers.  In fact, I even suggested you do a show on the whole red-shirting thing, sometime last year.  My parents owned a Day Care School for 15 years and I worked there for the last 3 years.  My mother has taught preschool through second grade students and is a strong advocate for holding children back.  I am pretty opinionated on these two subjects and I feel like I know you two (even though I don't) so since you asked for advice I am going to give it.  I hope it helps.

The Kindergarten situation

Anders

As you have indicated, I think you have to hold him back, or give him a grow year, or repeat Kindergarten, or whatever you want to call it.  Do not think that you made the wrong decision by sending him to Kindergarten, though.  He is learning a ton and will feel that much more comfortable and confident with the school and the teacher when he attends next year.  Even though he has been out of the house since he was young, a day care center environment is very different from the public school and many kids need more time to get used to it.  Because Anders had already graduated from his preschool, it only made sense for him to attend Kindergarten.  I agree with his teacher's assessment that based on his current academic standing and his emotional sensitivity that he needs another year to "cook".  Also, statistics do show that kids who start out behind tend to remain playing catch-up, but that is not always the case.

My sister has a fall birthday and to this day both she and my mother feel that they made a mistake by not holding her back.  She has always struggled with reading and has never been a confident student.  In addition, she was always younger than her classmates which meant that she did everything later and felt left out.  Her son, who is now 10, has a July birthday.  He is small for his age and based on her experience and his teachers recommendations, she had him repeat Kindergarten.  He is now excelling in fourth grade and still has friends in the fifth grade along with his classmates. 

As for telling him, I would suggested framing it as an opportunity (I know you already know this).  He will be able to be like his rock star girl friend who knows everything.  Instead of being the last to do things, he will be the first.  If he wants to play sports, he will be the older, stronger, bigger kid, and have an advantage.  He may be mad, but he will get over it.  Remember, he is still relatively young and years from now he will thank you.  I promise!   The hardest part is that he is such good friends with Tommy.  My son, Scott, has friends who are in the class ahead and behind his and it is great to widen their circle.  Plus Tommy can give him a heads up on all the things he will be doing next.

Now, this is important (because I said I was going to give you my opinions as if I know you):  Go get the book Teach Your Child to Read in 100 Easy Lessons.  In the beginning of the school year, this fall, start the lessons.  Anders will be a little bored with school because Kindergarten starts out slow.  But this will give him something to work on and he will be reading, I guarantee, by Christmas.  He will feel so happy and successful.  Everything will be perfect!  OK, I am getting a little carried away, but seriously, it is a fabulous program, only takes 10 - 20 minutes per day and is so worth it (you could do it after dinner each night).  Scott is an excellent reader, two grade levels ahead, and I credit a lot of it with doing this program.  I do not think that he would have learned how to read the way they teach it in school.  Being a strong reader is an important building block for all other subjects.  Think about it.  When the teacher puts something up on the board and all the other kids are trying to remember what she said, Anders will be able to read it.  He will be a superstar.  (Not that he isn't already, but you know what I mean).

Tommy

Where I live, in PA, holding kids back for behavior is pretty standard.  Although I agree that Anders should be held back, I think Tommy's situation is completely different.  Tommy seems to be similar to my son.  Scott was a serious behavior problem back in preschool and was diagnosed with a condition called Sensory Processing Disorder (you can read more about our story here, if you want).  At the time of his diagnosis there was much discussion as to whether he should do a grow year.  I looked into programs and had him evaluated several times.  We stressed about whether he could handle the Kindergarten environment given his lack of self control and out-of-bounds behavior. 

The term immature came up several times but I always found this confusing and an inadequate description.  Although he had trouble controlling himself in a group of kids, he was very mature with grown-ups.  He could discuss complicated topics and sit still for a long time.  I learned that it was the structure of the classroom that mostly did him in (that and the fact that he needed OT for some of his issues).

We were seeing a psychologist at the time and she urged us to have him attend Kindergarten on schedule.  Her opinion was that he needed a structured environment which challenged him academically.  She also pointed out that Scott needed appropriate role models in the form of older, more in control classmates.  If the other kids were being silly or acting out, he would follow right along, but when he was with older children, he would be less inclined to do those things.  She was right on the money.  And although there have been some blips along the way, I am so glad that we didn't keep him back.  He received all S's and +'s on his current report card, even in the work habits/behavior area.

Aside from the SPD, Tommy reminds me of Scott.  You should ask for a meeting with the school, not just send a letter, to discuss his continued success.  Just like you, they want him to do well and do not want him to require some sort of discipline plan. (As an aside there has been research conducted that shows that kids who are difficult early in their academic careers do not end up trouble makers all their lives.  He is not doomed to a life of being the bad kid!).  He needs a strong teacher who will not only make the rules and following them clear, but will also challenge him academically.  Also, if he can be tested for an enrichment (gifted) type of program, you may want to consider it.

The right teacher is very important, as is the structure of the classroom.  I would suggest that the teacher find stuff for Tommy to do to keep him busy.  He is calling out because he is bored and the work is too easy.  He is looking for attention.  That is what I think.  He will also be a superstar when he is given the opportunity to shine.  (Of course he already is, but you know what I mean).

Day Care

You asked how people handle issues they might have at their day care center.  I am going to offer the other side, the administrator perspective.

First and foremost, treat everyone at the day care center as well as you would your coworkers.  I know this sounds like common sense, but all too often, customers would talk down to the teachers and assistants as if they were no better than a teenage babysitter.  These people are taking care of your children, treat them kindly, show them respect, act appreciative. 

This goes for the administration as well.  Pay on time.  Don't show up late (and if you do, apologize profusely and pay whatever fee is applicable).  Day care centers spell out all their rules ahead of time.  You are not going to change them.  If you don't like them, you can say so, but don't expect the center to change.  You have a choice, they do not have to accommodate you.  Owning and operating a day care is a very difficult endeavor.  Although it seems like you are paying a lot of money, there is very little to go around once the large payroll, rent, insurance and other bills are paid.  The employees do not make much money, but are expected to care for children which can often be quite trying and stressful.

That said, if you already have a relationship with the school administrators, it is fair for you to ask for specific changes, or discuss issues, just like you would at a job.  Are you going to gripe the first week of a new job?  Of course not.  But you might ask your boss for something after you've proven your track record as a good employee.  And whatever it is that you might be asking about, do it in a professional, courteous manner.  This is true for anything, but for some reason it needs to be reiterated in the world of childcare.

Also, do not gossip with the day care employees.  Do not put them in a position to either talk about another child, a teacher, or the administration.  Same as it goes at work.  Talk to a teacher first, before you go over their head, but realize that they are trying to meet everyone's demands as well as follow their boss' rules, so be reasonable.  For the most part, people who work in day cares like little kids, there are plenty of other easier and better paying jobs that they could have. 

My mother and I used to joke that there were 3 kinds of day care parents:

1.  The people who were so glad that you were taking care of their children.  They would thank us all the time saying, "better you than me" and were happy to go to work knowing that their kids were well taken care of.  They had reasonable expectations and knew that they could not control everything, but felt that overall, the arrangement was positive.  They liked that their kids were with other children, could play outside on the playground, do art projects, etc.  Their motto:  Thank god you are here.

2.  The  people who were resentful that they had to go to work when they really wanted to stay home.  They were unhappy with the cost of the tuition, thought that they weren't getting enough for their money, felt that the owners must be getting rich off of their misfortune, and wished that they could afford a nanny so that they felt more in control.  They would grunt at us when they came in and out, barely read any newsletters, and often complained.  Their motto:  I am miserable and so should every one else be.

3.  The people that were paranoid that they were ruining their children by putting them in day care and were looking all the time for some kind of breech in conduct by an employee.  They questioned every time a child or teacher moved from one class to another or a family or teacher left the school.  They hung out way too long every morning and afternoon, afraid they might miss picking up some vital information that would prove their suspicions were justified.  Their motto:  Day care is evil and not to be trusted.

Obviously, the first people were the ones who had the best experience!

Wow, that was an earful, right?!  Anyway, I am sure it will all work out with the Kindergarten/First Grade thing and I hope I was able to provide some insight into the day care world.

Keep up the great podcasts!  I look forward to them and to your blog posts each week.

Your friend and fellow mommy,

Lori at Spinning Yellow

Comments

[Hawa]

This is so beautiful. I love the pitcures. The way that they were taking just shows just how much you love that baby girl. I love you Julia and I always will. Cheyenne is a beautiful baby. I wish we were closer so I could be there to enjoy her too.

[Lori at Spinning Yellow]

Hi Jenny, blogess!
Thanks for your comment. It is very individual and you have to do what is best in your circumstance. One problem is that the cut-off dates are not universal (national). Where I live the cutoff is 9/15, but in NY where my cousin's daughter lives, the cutoff is in December. Her daughter's b-day is in Nov. so she is on the young side for her grade, but would be in the middle of the grade below here. Such inconsistencies are confusing, especially when each grade has to meet national levels of competency.

Angela at mommy bytes -
Thanks for commenting here, I've lurked at your sight before! I'll take this post being called a dissertation instead of long-winded, as my husband described it! I do think the apple often doesn't fall far from the tree, so if you had a similar experience, it certainly stands to reason that your son may need to be more challenged (be it with an enrichment program or skipping ahead).

As far as the categorizing of day care parents, I should have prefaced that with a general comment about how the parent's attitude can really impact the experience they have. I am glad it has worked out well for you, sounds like you took the right approach.

[Angela at mommy bytes]

I love your dissertation on these subjects! I'm an infrequent Manic Mommies listener, but I do keep up with them on their blog. I have a son in first grade who is at the top of his class academically, but getting worse in the behavior department. He is one of the older and biggest kids and I wonder if accelerating him might be better for him because he is bored. I went through the same issues as a child and eventually graduated at 16 and it worked for me.

And thankfully, even though we have a stay at home parent (my husband), we are in the number 1 category when it comes to daycare. This is probably because we transitioned from a two working parent household and created the trust with this daycare center before switching to part time.

[Maddy]

Like you say, it depends on the child. Strangely it was my daughters that I held back due to immature social skills, but the boys 'had' to go early to get those services - what a strange world.
Best wishes

[Jenny, bloggess]

Good stuff here. My daughter has a fall birthday and I assumed I'd hold her back. When I mentioned that to her school they looked at me like I was an alien.

[Lori at Spinning Yellow]

Julie - I doubt you are anything like the parents I described! But preschool is different in that your kid is not there all day with the opportunity for good moments and not-so-good ones as well. Also, there were certainly parents who started in one category and moved to the first group once they realized that the school was good and that their children were happy. Some are a tougher sell, that is for sure!

Delilah - well, you know I can be opinionated!

Ahh, yes, Laura, I know who you mean! I will save the employee thing for another post, or perhaps you should do a guest post "secrets from the inside of a day care"

Erin of Manic Mommies - Thank you so much for your e-mail and for linking to this post! Welcome to any Manic Mommies listeners/readers!

[Laura]

Lori-
Very interesting and articulate post! I'll bet you and I could have a conversation on exactly who these 3 different types of parents are and name them respectively. I have a few floating around right now in my head. We could also classify the employees too! Miss T is in a class all by herself and I don't mean my beloved partner ;)

[delilah]

You have a lot to say on these subjects that is certainly worth listening to.

[Julie Pippert]

How interesting to read your take on it! I am mightily fearful that I am #3 on your daycare description, only for schools. I walk in without having or not having trust. There are things you can do to earn my trust. The preschool teachers have done this. I have utter faith in them and they are Gold as far as I am concerned. Not so much for the others.

And I think you have wise advice.