If Only We Had Religion

** I am going back into my draft posts again and decided to go ahead and publish this one, written back in May.  I do now own this book, but haven't read it yet.  I am not sure this post flows very well, but I am going to put it out there anyway.  Deadlines make your perfectionist side take a back seat!

I saw other bloggers commenting on this new book called Parenting Beyond Belief and then listened to the Motherhood Uncensored podcast about it.  This is right up my alley and I am happy to have a blog where I can add my thoughts to the discussion.

Matt and I bring to our family a super complicated religious background (more about our personal story and feelings on religion another time).  We decided (probably on our first date) that we would not be raising our children with an organized religion.  I knew he had been raised Jewish but did not practice it in any way, nor did he feel that he wanted his kids to.  He was happy to adopt the Christian holidays that I grew up with even when we get all crazy at Christmas.  But we (Matt and I) don't do any religion.  No church, no synagogue, none of it.

When we got married, we picked the "No God" version for our ceremony.  Not even the "God Lite" version (as the wonderful wedding officiator called it).  But we still wanted to have tradition and we were able to draw from many different areas for that.  I was clear as can be on this topic.  I knew how I felt about God, Jesus and Organized Religion.  I could explain it to my children and they could make their own decisions.  We would celebrate holidays like I had growing up and help other family members celebrate their holidays in what ever way they wanted.  I love holidays and traditions and still wanted to be able to have that, just without the religion.  The "No God" version.  I would definitely call myself a secular parent.

I dated a few guys who claimed that religion wasn't important to them.  Once we got more serious, it was clear that they were not being honest with themselves or me.  One guy in particular had told me that he wanted his kids to be raised Catholic even if he wasn't going to practice himself.  I told my coworkers this was a deal breaker for me and that I knew the relationship would be ending soon.  More than one person commented that I was wrong.  What's the big deal, they said, you don't have to believe in the religion in order to raise your kids in it.  If it is critical to the guy, they thought I should just go along with it.  I wondered why my non-faith stance was considered to be invalid.  Why couldn't my feelings against religion be just as important as someone's feelings for it?

Most of my friends and family do practice a particular religion.  So the inevitable questions about why they go to church or celebrate a different holiday come up.  Last Christmas, my 12 year old nephew, whose family is very involved in the same church that I attended as a youth, asked how we could celebrate if we didn't believe in Jesus as the savior.  Hmmm.  I tried not to be smart and say, well, you put up a tree, make cookies and buy presents.  That's how.  He has a point.  From the perspective of those that are religious I see how it is offensive to hijack their holiday and only acknowledge parts of it.  The flip side of that is that the very people who get mad about the de-Christing of Christmas also will say, what's wrong with pledging allegiance to the flag with under God in it?   Who wouldn't want our nation to be protected by God?  As in, see it my way but I don't have to see it your way. 

This attitude confounds me.  People seem to have a hard time realizing that not everyone believes in God at all, let alone their particular take on him. 

Because religion and tradition and culture are all intertwined.  So another idea that is supposed to be presented in the book is that in order to be an informed, intellectual person, you must understand religion and the place it has held in history.  I was fascinated by my Religious Studies class in college.

I grew up participating heavily in my church's youth group.  I had many really fun times there.  I loved feeling like I fit in.  I taught Sunday School, attended youth group, went on the big beach retreat (where we did plenty of non-church related activities like kiss boys and drink liquor).  I liked this fun and safe community and am hoping for something similar for my children.  But I don't want to be a hypocrite and have it be in a setting where I don't believe in the central message.

The preschools in our area are mostly religiously based.  Housed in churches or the synagogue.  When I started looking for a preschool for Scott I was surprised to find this out.  The public school is so non-religious, it is almost ridiculous.  You can't talk about any religious holidays.  But preschool, you better be ready for praying and big-time holiday celebrating.  Since my parents had owned a day care I was well aware of the issues of trying to appease everyone on this topic.  Customers were always complaining that either they didn't want Santa Clause coming to the holiday party or that we didn't sing any songs about Jesus in the holiday show.  One time a Jewish boy told his whole 3 year year old class that Santa Claus isn't real.  You can imagine the irate phone calls my parents received after that incident. 

I set out looking for a non-religious school for Scott.  Many people didn't understand why I was adamant about this.  Why would good Christian values and saying a little prayer be bad for your kid?  Once again I was confronted with the idea that my desire for non-religion was not as important as the concept of having religion in your child's life.  I didn't think the values that these schools taught were offensive, I just didn't want my child seeing the world through their belief system.  It felt like the preschool was a recruiting ground for future congregation members instead of simply a place for my child to learn.  The undercurrent of their religion was present whether it appeared obvious or not.  I do not fault those people who do not have a problem with this.  You can send your child to the Methodist or Baptist preschool if you want, but make no mistake about it, the kids are getting a message about religion.  If you are OK with this, no worries.

I have not read this book but I am looking forward to doing so.  I am particularly intrigued by the idea of teaching your children to be critical thinkers and also to be tolerant and respectful of other people's beliefs.  I love when Scott says "The commercial is just trying to get you to buy that."  Or, "Just because it has Pokemon on it, doesn't mean it tastes better."  Hurray!  My kid is looking past the false hype.  But I don't want him to say, "You're dumb because you believe in heaven and that's not real."  That is insulting.

We talk a lot about heaven and death around here.  Actually, Scott is obsessed with both topics.  Back when we were seeing the Parenting Consultant she told us to be honest about what we thought and then ask him what he thought.  As in, "Mommy, is there a heaven, and if so, what is it?"  "I'm not sure, sweetie, nobody really knows.  Heaven is probably whatever you want it to be.  What do you think?"  This is a pretty good tactic, although Scott will still grill us as to what, exactly, we think and what, exactly, everyone else he knows thinks.

At a family meal, about a year ago, my father-in-law said something about his mother being dead.  Scott matter-of-factly said, "and now she's turned into dirt in the ground".  My poor father-in-law looked so taken aback.  Of course Scott meant no harm in what he was saying, he was just reporting what he knew. 

I told this story to one of my friends and she joked that it is too bad we aren't religious since you can answer tricky questions with "Because God made it that way" or "They're in Heaven now" which are much more socially acceptable for a 5 year old to say.  Another friend also said that she realized that she had to come up with more scientific explanations for things like why the flowers are green since she had always been saying "because God made them that way".  This patent answer also comes in handy when your child asks about where babies come from.

None of that for us around here.  And I am OK with that.  I want my kids to ask deep questions and think about what may or may not be true.  Well, maybe not about sex, but I guess I have to get over that!

One time when a neighbor was over, he was making words with the refrigerator magnets.  I heard the boy say, I'm going to spell God.  Knowing that a few letters were missing, I said, "we don't have the letters for that word".  "OK," he said, "I'll spell Jesus instead".  Scott started laughing and chimed in, "what other bad words can we spell?"  I burst out laughing realizing that Scott thought Jesus was a bad word, as in "Jesus!  I burnt my hand!" 

Then I wondered what this boy would tell his parents about his heathen neighbors.

When I was growing up, we were not encouraged to disagree with my parents.  In fact, doing that could get you in a lot of trouble.  We also did not have political or other discourse at our dinner table.  I'm sure we talked about our day, what we did and stuff like that, but as for opinions, I don't remember voicing any.  I am hoping that my children will learn how to have and express their own thoughts.

I also want them to be mindful of when and where it is appropriate to voice those opinions.  To realize that not everyone sees things the same way.  And that understanding these things will make them more tolerant of differences and better able to appreciate life and all its complexities.

Comments

[Lisa]

"I didn't think the values that these schools taught were offensive, I just didn't want my child seeing the world through their belief system."

You NAILED it !! Happily we were able to find a PreSchool for BooRat that is NOT affiliated with any church/religion.

[Dee]

Lori, thanks for the interesting post. Obviously it strikes a chord with me: I live most days feeling very conflicted about not practicing a religion with my children, despite growing up in a strict Catholic family (or maybe because of!) It is very hard knowing that in my mother's eyes I have failed her. I don't know if it is something I will ever really get over. Lucky for you that you are very sure of yourself and have parents who understand you.

[Lori at Spinning Yellow]

Summer - Thanks for stopping by! I am glad you liked the post and can relate - "a little religious" sort of like "a little bit pregnant" right?

[Summer]

I just found this post at random and I love it! Though I'm Pagan, my partner is an athiest and we both agreed to raise our kids as athiests until they deside on thir own. I still remember when I declined enrolling my oldst in the local Christian preschool being told "But it's only a little religious." LOL

I think many people see having no belief as having nothing. I've been told that without god how would my kids no not to do bad things, as if the onyl possible reason to be a good human being is because there is some guy in the sky telling you to. LOL

[Lori at Spinning Yellow]

Cyndi - I like the sound of that guy's religion, but you would probably also like to have your favorite Catholic inspired traditions too. I was jealous of you growing up b/c you were part of that Catholic club. I felt like I was missing out. Until you had to go get your throat blessed or some other crazy thing on a Wednesday!!

Niksmom - Thank-you for sharing your background. My MIL who converted to Judaism was raised in a very Catholic household. And my father completely rejected any of his Catholic upbring b/c it was so forced on him. We refer to these people as "recovering Catholics". I like to think of things in terms of spirituality also, instead of organized religion as we know it. That is how I was raised, my participation in youth group was strictly my choice.

[Niksmom]

Lori, this is a wonderful, thought provoking post. I like to say I am deeply spiritual but not terribly religious. I was brought up in a (loosely practicing) Presbyterian home, but went to church or synagogue with all my friends whenever we had sleepovers. I then went to a Quaker high school. I'm sure I'll get blasted for this one...I do beleieve in God or some higher divine power but not necessarily in all the scriptures. And yet, go figure, I believe in Heaven as a state of being (vs. a place) and in angels. Yes, I'm a totaly Heinz-57 when it comes to religion! A fact which makes my Catholic MIL cringe, despite the fact her son has nothing to do with Catholicism after having it shoved down his throat his entire life.

[Cyndi]

I'm not sure that I realized that debate of any sort was not allowed at your dinner table either (I'm Lori's cousin). Arguing was clearly not allowed at Grandma and Grandpa Belle's kitchen table!

Great post. I am a practicing (barely) Catholic but after college I dated a guy who was into a religion (the name of which I can't remember right now) that basically accepted all religions as ways that God has presented himself to different people throughout history. (Of course, you have to believe in the basic idea of God to buy into this.) I liked this religion and if I was religion shopping that would have been my choice. I know, it's an easy out, but I liked the basic idea.

[Lori at Spinning Yellow]

Hannah - No apology necessary!! Please come here and share your thoughts no matter how long. Thanks for adding the history about the Christmas traditions. I think there are few among us who do not have complicated feelings on religion and how we want to pass it on (or not) to our children.

Julie - Thanks! I like the vitamin analogy. I did have to look up IYKWIM (if you know what I mean)!!

[Maddy]

We used to have huge political and religious debates over the dinner table when I was a teenager, [still do now come to think of it when I visit home] but I don't think there are any easy answers.
Cheers

[Julie Pippert]

This is a fantastic post...and in so many ways we agree, although faith and Christianity is important to me and a regular part of my life. The bottom line, though, is that IMO it has its place, and it's not in the face of everything. IYKWIM.

I think your honesty is so, so, so much better than the religious cafeteria plan.

If I may, I'd like to do a vitamin metaphor here.

Vitamins are good for you, right? So any vitamin is a good thing.

No, false.

You need to know what your body needs, when to take it (time of day) and adverse effects on prescribed and OTC drugs.

Taking vitamins requires mindfulness.

But so few people use mindfulness---or better yet, as relates to your post and that book (which sounds good) critical thinking skills---and just say "oh any vitamin is good!"

Why not say...why do I think I need this vitamin? Should I try to get the nutrition through food instead? What time of day is better to take it?

And so forth.

Again, great post!

Julie
Using My Words
http://theartfulflower.blogspot.com

[Hannah]

Boy, a lot in this post to think about. I was baptised Lutheran and went to church with my grandmother as a kid, but I don't consider myself a Christian. That doesn't stop me from enjoying the holidays, though. I mean, most of the major Christian celebrations were actual pagan fertility or harvest rites, hijacked by the Catholic church and melded with their own religious services as a way to get out of trying to make highland Celts stop celebrating the winter solstice under the guidance of the Druids. Yule logs, mistletoe, holly - these all have their roots in the ancient Druidic traditions. So I don't see it celebrating Xmas under false pretenses, myself. But it is tricky. I was watching the Charlie Brown Christmas special with my two-year-old last night and I realized that the day will come when I have to explain to him why I don't believe it's only about celebrating the birth of an anti-Roman revolutionary figure that happened about 2000 years ago. I'm lucky in that my mom was very open about her particular beliefs and discussion about this was always encouraged, so I'm planning to do the same in my house.

Courageous post. I'll bet you get some comments that are not so nice. I enjoyed reading it, though. And sorry for going on so much... I might tackle this one and my own complicated feelings about it on my blog.

[Lori at Spinning Yellow]

Matt - How timely - I can't believe I chose this post while you had had that conversation upstairs in your office!

In the case you mentioned the whole thing becomes more complicated. Because it IS more than religion to many Jews, it is also about ethnicity and the further dilution of their race. So from the grandmother's view, she felt her grandson was collaborating with the ethnic cleansing of her day. So sad. Although I can see where she is coming from, I also think there is a way to respect heritage without alienating the very relatives you cherish.

I once made a comment during a book group discussion (the attendees included two of my Jewish friends), that some people could take the whole "Jewish social club, meet a prospective spouse events" as a reverse discrimination. Like, your non-Jewish son is not good enough for my Jewish daughter. Boy did I get a talking to after that. I was merely trying to say that it goes both ways.

I would never (and could never) say that if my daughter were to marry a black man that she would be diluting her "white" heritage. But the idea of losing one's ethnicity is a tough pill to swallow especially for people who have been persecuted and have suffered so much.

[Matthew]

I recently reached out to a former vendor whom I never met before but worked with in my previous life to inform her of my change. The conversation quickly turned from business to personal. I have always had a good rapport with her and I think it's because she is generally a nice person and a strait-shooter. I like her, she was a good business partner, and I think she liked me as well. She then went on to tell me her 86 year old mother recently passed away. While sad it wasn't the heart of her story. She informed me that both of her parents were Holocaust survivors and inquired if I were Jewish. I explained to her my upbringing and my current beliefs towards the "G" word and religion in general. She was respectful and understood. As we we talked more, non of which was about business, she said her son was married to a wonderful "Catholic" woman and they recently had their first grandchild. Catholic woman. Why not just a wonderful woman? It goes further. Her mother, whom just passed away, refused to speak to her son after he married this wonderful "Catholic" woman and she never met her grandson's son prior to her passing. While I respect a person's beliefs, understand the atrocities she and her husband (an Auschwitz survivor) endured, I didn't understand (I guess deep down I did) why she couldn't get passed her grandson's decision for the sake of family and love. Her grandson attempted to reach out to his grandmother many, many times and sat Shiva out of respect even throw those were not his beliefs. He never stopped loving her and only chose to remember all of the good times prior to his marriage rather than dwell on the present and the fact that his son never met his great grandmother. I will never know what it is like to be a Holocaust survivor and while this undoubtedly had a lot to do with this situation, those who have suffered, in this case the great grandparents, only suffered more and the sadness only continued and again for no other reason than religion. It never mattered that the son married a great person and had a beautiful child and wanted to teach their son good values and how to be a great person. It never mattered that ther was love or happiness. It only mattered that she was of a different faith and for that their are consequences. I am sure there is more to this story than what I have presented from a 1/2 hour conversation but if you take out the religions or reverse the scenarios it is played out every day in our society. It doesn't have to be this way if only we could respect and look at people for who they really are and not what they believe.

[delilah]

I don't remember having any of these discussions with my parents either. I just remember going to Mass and sitting there because that's what we were supposed to do. It wasn't until I met Gonzo that I started asking questions about religion and forming my own opinions.

We haven't had any of the death/heaven/God discussions in our house yet, though I know it will be soon. So many tough questions to answer that don't really have an answer.

[MommyWithAttitude]

I write about this a lot. It all seems so simple until you actually have little humans looking to you to give a good answer!

As an aside, I'm religious (sort of) and I find Christmas to be the HUGEST pain in the ass. Meanwhile, my atheist mother-in-law is the biggest Christmas fanatic ever. EVER, I'm not kidding. Last week she told me that she has a nativity scene my husband grew up with and she'd like us to have it for our boys. I said, sure (because I'm pretty easy about religion -- any religion or non-religion, whichever). Then she said that the baby Jesus was missing - had been for as far back as any of them could remember. And I joked that they have the atheist nativity scene.